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General tattoo discussion

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joannie_mhm
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question

Post by joannie_mhm » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:53 am

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Last edited by joannie_mhm on Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

kate1211
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Post by kate1211 » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:05 am

All tattoos will spread over time. How much and how fast depends on the persons skin and the location (elasticity changes in different areas) Some tattooists do not like to do really small work, because of this. Some tattoos look great for many many years though and don't really spread for awhile (you've saw the old men with the blurry tattoos) So other tattooists still do small pieces. It's up to the individual artist, some just don't like to do work that won't look 100%..

Kate

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:04 pm

Stars come down to a technical consideration. The thicknes and texture of the skin determines how sharp you can make a point. then you have to consider aging. A flat even area may not change much in fifty years on thin skin, but a moving area on a thick skinned person is totally different. There are no absolutes in anything, especially tattoo. Most artists treat what they are capabble of as "the rules", some can do anything. Look into five or ten tattoo shops before you ever take anyONEs word for it.

modifaerie
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Post by modifaerie » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:29 pm

Thick skinnend? I'm not sure if I agree with that. A tattoo is as good as the artist who applies it. I've seen stars the size of a dime that have stood the test of time because they were well appllied. Never base your knowledge of tattooing on "something you heard from a friend." If a small star is an image you would like to have tattooed then talk to tattoo artists. It may take a few before you find someone who can do it and do it well. But this can be true with any image.

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:43 pm

Skin type is the most determinate factor in tattooing. The same design will look totaly different on a different skin type. The test of time is 50 not 5 years. Then it is obvious. so make sure your artists customizes your design to your skin type and color tone. As i said some artists are more comfortable with different things, but the technichal ideas still remain. thinner skin alows for a sharper point and more detail than thick skin. That is a basic fact of tattoo technique.

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:12 pm

To hopfully make it more clear... the skin is three dimentional it is composed of cells which are little pockets of electrolytic water. The layers of skin are composed of skin cells in varying degrees of exfoliation. the inside cells are full and soft the outer cells are flat and scaly. the ink must be lodged into the lower levels of these cells so that as new cells are formed throughout life they form around the existing ink particles. This cell migation is what causes a tattoo to change. The more a person causes thier skin to reproduce the more a tattoo will change. However those that are well done have a majic that seems to make them look better over time.

When it comes to a point on something like tribal or a star the skin thickness deternines the amount of ink that can be loged into the skin in ato form a solid fill that will last. Your dot or pixel size so to speak. A pin dot is possible but it will look like jailhouse grey instead of black if it is not enough pigment to reflect back throught the skin above it. with thicker skin you can lodge more ink into the skin, easyier for color and bold designs, but it is deeper once it is healled so it looks slightly unclean if you try to make it too sharp. This is not just me, this is an age old technical fact.

This is about geometry, if you design the star acorrdingly you can get more out of it but the standard"perfect" five point star or the traditional nautical star have such a fine balance of positive and negative that skin must always be taken into account.



buy the way a half inch is fine in any skin. that should be OK it is not getting into questionable territory at all.

modifaerie
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Post by modifaerie » Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:36 pm

the only people who scientifically have "thicker skin" are the eskimos.....the non-eskimo's dermis and epidermis are only slightly varied to the degree that cannot be seen by the naked eye. In all my years of studying tattoos, apprenticing, talking to artists and clients, I have never , even once, heard a tattoo could or could not be done based on the thickness of the skin.

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:18 am

First off let me say that all ideas are best when they are taken as opinion to use or not, make your choice. If you do not like my ideas make up your own. What the hell, we are all full of it! ... just have fun!

its not that they cannot be done, they will just look different. even on one person we have many different skin depths. Inside outside of arm for instance.

Overall skin type is based on geneology. the skin is of course different on each person. northern skin is more insulated by a larger area to contain fluid to even out temperature. Too thin of skin would freeze more quickly on a cellular basis . Thats what frostbite is. A Mexican will freeze to death in snow faster than a german but a german will die of heatstroke before a Mexican, AND I AM TALKING ABOUT GENETICS NOT NATIONALIY I AM USING THE COUNRTIES AS A GEOGRAPHICAL REFERENCE. AND ASSUMING INDIGENOUS BLOODLINE. The same as nasal structure and eye and lip shape. Nordic nostrils features tend to have smaller openings with little or no extra space in the nasal cavity to mosturize or cool air. The entire facial structure and skull is different on a person who is geneologicaly pure angolan black verses pure northern european. this is also true for eskimos verses guatamalan indians. Different hemisphere, same traits. The skin forms forms through natural selection just like everything else. The skin of peoples who are closer to the pure indigenous types tend to have thicker outer skin for protection. Peoples who have worn soft clothes and lived in comfortable climates for centuries have developed what we think of as "normal" skin. nice and smooth and soft.

The type of traditional indigeonous tattooing that a people practice is another good example of different skin playing a major role in design choice. Ancient peoples had just as much if not more of an understanding of asthectics than we do today and were very good a using there tools and skin to create the best designs possible. Artwork from tribes varies according to tooling and what looks best in the skin.

The fineline style developed in the southwestern united states is good for working on nice smooth thin hispanic skin but is not so great on a big swede. The northern american and european styles of traditional tattooing stuck around becouse it looked better bold and simple in thick skin. Everything was tried thousands of years ago and the styles we have have stuck around because they work so well for certain people. Europeans tried sigle needle in the 1800's but the skin didn't like it so the move up to larger groupings for bolder lines. The Chumash indians were using cactus to put in fine line centurys ago, it looked good on their thin tan skin, so they maintained that style to this day. South pacific styles also maintain a strict relationship between skin and what they choose to do. Each island group has a very distinct aboriginal geneology.

The geometry involed is that no point should be finer than the thickness of the skin involved, therefore as a rule but of couse not an absolute, a southerner is better for fineline and a northerner for bold lines.

None of this might be noticed by someone who has not been looking for it. I have traveled Europe, Asia South America the Islands Africa and of course the states. I have studied genetics and indiginos peoples all my life. I find in enlightening to see history through the migrations of peoples and the mingleing of their cultures and traits. Like art history.

I am trying to hel spread some of what I know in exchange for what others know, I can oly repeat what I have learned and hope someone will be into it like I am.



The books "Germs guns and Seel" "Birth of the modern" and Watts' "understanding stupidity" (funny as hell to read) are really good for this type of research

modifaerie
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Post by modifaerie » Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:18 pm

"First off let me say that all ideas are best when they are taken as opinion to use or not, make your choice. If you do not like my ideas make up your own. What the hell, we are all full of it! ... just have fun! "





At no point in any of your previous posts did you mention having an opinion or idea. You stated everything to be "scientific fact." It is these ideas as fact that I disagree with. There may be some validity to your "thickness theory" in laser removal of tattoos but not in application.

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:01 pm

I am sorry you take it that way. I work in an academic enviroment I am used to stating ideas as apperent facts, and working with people who know that all ideas are worthy of more experimentation. This is theory as far as tattoo and history can be sientific or theologically based. It is all conjecture, it is redundat to state that.

skin is what determines the look of as tattoo. Don't you think that's a reasonable idea? You really have not noticed difference in skin depth or type? To me it has always been a staple of helping each person design the tattoo style that is best for them.

I will ignore it for a while if you will pay attention to it, how about that.

let's change today .

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:03 pm

oh yea when I said it was a basic fact of tattooing I was assuming that everyone looked at it that way, sorry about that. Most of the artists I know say it is really important. hopefully this will help both of us.

modifaerie
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Post by modifaerie » Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:53 pm

We must come from copletely different worlds. :P Any time I have been in an acedemic setting I have been told to state my opinion as such unless I had the proper factual information to back up my claims. ::shrug:: your idea is interesting if looked at as an idea. My next day at the shop I will discuss it with the artists who are apprenticing me and get their take on it. I'll let you know what they say.

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